Uyini umehluko phakathi kwendlela yokuzijabulisa yabesifazane kanye neyowesilisa? Kungenzeka yini ukuba nobuhlobo bobulili ngaphandle kokungena? Ukwakheka kwemizimba yethu kuyithonya elingakanani emcabangweni wethu? Isazi sezocansi u-Alain Eril kanye nochwepheshe bengqondo uSophie Kadalen bazama ukuthola.
Isazi sezocansi u-Alain Héril ukholelwa ukuthi abesifazane sebeqala ukuveza inkanuko yabo kancane kancane … kodwa bakwenza ngokwemithetho yabesilisa. Isazi sokusebenza kwengqondo u-Sophie Cadalen sakha impendulo ngendlela ehlukile: inkanuko yindawo lapho imingcele phakathi kobulili inyamalala khona ... Futhi engxabanweni, njengoba wazi, iqiniso lizalwa.
Psychology: Ingabe kukhona i-erotica yabesifazane ehlukile kowesilisa?
U-Sophie Cadalen: Ngeke ngikhiphe i-erotica ethile yowesifazane, izici zayo ezingaba yisici sanoma yimuphi umuntu wesifazane. Kodwa ngesikhathi esifanayo, ngiyazi ngokuqinisekile: kunezikhathi ezingase zibe nokuhlangenwe nakho kuphela njengowesifazane. Futhi lokho akufani nokuba yindoda. Yilo mehluko osithakaselayo kwasekuqaleni. Siyakucabangela, naphezu kokucwasa okuningi, ukuze siqonde: yini indoda nowesifazane? yini esiyilindele komunye nomunye ngokocansi? siyini isifiso sethu nendlela yokuzijabulisa? Kodwa ngaphambi kokuba siphendule le mibuzo, kumelwe sicabangele izici ezintathu: inkathi esiphila kuyo, isikhathi esakhula ngaso, nomlando wobudlelwane phakathi kwabesilisa nabesifazane kuze kube namuhla.
U-Alain Eril: Ake sizame ukuchaza i-erotica. Ngabe yimuphi umthombo wokuvusa inkanuko yocansi sizowubiza ngokuthi uvusa inkanuko? Noma yini esethusayo, ebangela ukushisa kwangaphakathi? Kokubili amaphupho nenjabulo kuxhumene naleli gama... Kimi, i-erotica ingumbono wesifiso, owethulwa ngezithombe. Ngakho-ke, ngaphambi kokukhuluma nge-erotica yabesifazane, umuntu kufanele abuze ukuthi zikhona yini izithombe ezithile zabesifazane. Futhi lapha ngivumelana noSophie: ayikho i-erotica yabesifazane ngaphandle komlando wabesifazane nendawo yabo emphakathini. Yiqiniso, kukhona into ehlala njalo. Kodwa namuhla asazi kahle ukuthi yiziphi izici esinazo ezingowesilisa nokuthi yiziphi ezingezowesifazane, uyini umehluko nokufana kwethu, yiziphi izifiso zethu - futhi, owesilisa nowesifazane. Konke lokhu kuyathakazelisa kakhulu ngoba kuyasiphoqa ukuthi sizibuze imibuzo.
Nokho, uma sibheka, ngokwesibonelo, ezingosini zezithombe zobulili ezingcolile, kubonakala kithi sengathi kunomehluko omkhulu phakathi kwemicabango yabesilisa nabesifazane...
SK: Ngakho-ke, kubalulekile ukukhumbula inkathi esaphuma kuyo. Ngicabanga ukuthi kusukela kwavela umqondo we-erotica, isikhundla sowesifazane besilokhu sivikela. Sisacashe ngemuva - ezikhathini eziningi singanakile - imibono enjalo mayelana nobufazi esinqabela ukufinyelela ezithombeni ezithile. Ake sithathe izithombe zobulili ezingcolile njengesibonelo. Uma singakunaki ubandlululo oluningi kanye nokusabela kokuzivikela, kuzocaca ngokushesha ukuthi amadoda amaningi awamthandi, nakuba bethi okuphambene nalokho, futhi abesifazane, ngokuphambene nalokho, bayamthanda, kodwa bafihle ngokucophelela. Esikhathini sethu, abesifazane bahlangabezana nokungafani okubi phakathi kobulili babo bangempela kanye nokuvezwa kwabo. Kusenegebe elikhulu phakathi kwenkululeko abayishoyo kanye nalokho abakuzwa ngempela nabahlala bezenqabela bona.
Ngabe lokhu kusho ukuthi abantu besifazane baseyizisulu zombono wabesilisa nomphakathi wonkana? Ingabe bazowafihla ngempela amaphupho abo, izifiso zabo futhi bangalokothi bazenze zibe ngokoqobo?
SK: Ngiyenqaba igama elithi «isisulu» ngoba ngikholelwa ukuthi abesifazane ngokwabo bayabandakanyeka kulokhu. Ngenkathi ngiqala ukufunda izincwadi ezivusa inkanuko, ngathola into ethokozisayo: sikholelwa ukuthi lena incwadi yabesilisa, futhi ngesikhathi esifanayo silindele - kithi noma kumbhali - ukubukeka kowesifazane. Ngokwesibonelo, unya luyimfanelo yamadoda. Ngakho-ke ngiqaphele ukuthi abesifazane ababhala izincwadi ezinjalo nabo bafuna ukuzwa unya olutholakala esithweni sobulili sowesilisa. Kulokhu, abesifazane abahlukile kwabesilisa.
AE: Esikubiza ngokuthi izithombe zobulili ezingcolile yilokhu: isihloko esisodwa siqondisa isifiso sakhe kwesinye isihloko, simehlisele esigabeni sento. Kulokhu, indoda ivame ukuba yisihloko, futhi owesifazane uyinto. Yingakho sihlobanisa izithombe zobulili ezingcolile nezimfanelo zobudoda. Kodwa uma sithatha amaqiniso esimweni sesikhathi, sizobona ukuthi ubulili besifazane abuzange buvele kuze kube ngu-1969, lapho amaphilisi okulawula ukuzalwa avela, futhi kanye nabo ukuqonda okusha kobudlelwane bomzimba, ubulili nokuzijabulisa. Lokhu bekusanda kwenzeka. Vele, bekulokhu kukhona abantu besifazane abavelele njengoLouise Labe.1, Colette2 noma uLou Andreas-Salome3ababemele ubulili babo, kodwa kwabesifazane abaningi, konke kwakusanda kuqala. Kunzima ukuthi sichaze i-erotica yabesifazane ngoba namanje asikazi ukuthi kuyini. Manje sizama ukuyichaza, kodwa ekuqaleni sihamba emgwaqeni osuvele ugandaywe yimithetho ye-eroticism yabesilisa: ukuyikopisha, ukuyibuyisela kabusha, kusukela kubo. Okuhlukile, mhlawumbe, ubudlelwano bamalesbian kuphela.
SK: Angivumelani nawe ngemithetho yamadoda. Yebo, lona umlando wobudlelwane phakathi kwesihloko nento. Yilokhu okushiwo ubulili, amaphupho ocansi: sonke singaphansi futhi siyaphikisana. Kodwa lokhu akusho ukuthi yonke into yakhiwe ngokwemithetho yabesilisa.
Ngokungangabazeki, sihlukile: umzimba wesifazane uklanyelwe ukwamukela, owesilisa - ukungena. Ingabe lokhu kunendima ekwakhiweni kwe-erotica?
SK: Ungashintsha yonke into. Khumbula isithombe sesitho sangasese samazinyo: indoda ayikwazi ukuzivikela, ipipi layo lisemandleni owesifazane, angakwazi ukuluma. Ilungu elimile libonakala lihlasela, kodwa liphinde libe sengozini enkulu yendoda. Futhi akubona bonke abesifazane abaphupha ngokugwazwa: ku-erotica yonke into ixubene.
AE: Incazelo yokuvusa inkanuko iwukumiselela emcabangweni wethu kanye nokudala isenzo socansi kanjalo nesikhashana socansi. Le ndawo, kusukela kudala yayingowesilisa, manje isiphethwe ngabesifazane: ngezinye izikhathi benza njengamadoda, ngezinye izikhathi ngokumelene namadoda. Kumelwe sivumele isifiso sethu somehluko silawule ngokukhululekile ukuze samukele ukushaqeka okungasilethwa okuthile okungezona ezobudoda ngokuphelele noma okwesifazane ngokuphelele. Lesi yisiqalo senkululeko yeqiniso.
Incazelo ye-erotica iwukumiselela emcabangweni wethu kanye nokudala isenzo socansi kanjalo nesikhashana socansi.
SK: Ngivumelana nawe mayelana nemicabango kanye nokudala. I-Erotica akuwona nje umdlalo oholela ekungeneni. Ukungena akusona isiphetho ngokwakho. I-Erotica iyikho konke esikudlalayo kuze kufike kuvuthondaba, ngokungena noma ngaphandle kokungena.
AE: Ngenkathi ngifunda i-sexology, satshelwa ngemijikelezo yocansi: isifiso, umdlalo wangaphambili, ukungena, i-orgasm… kanye nogwayi (uyahleka). Umehluko phakathi kwendoda nowesifazane ubonakala ikakhulukazi ngemva kwe-orgasm: owesifazane uyakwazi ngokushesha okulandelayo. Kulapho kufihlwe khona ukuvusa inkanuko: kulokhu kusebenza kukhona okuwumyalelo okumele kuqhubeke. Lokhu kuyinselelo kithina madoda: ukungena endaweni yocansi lapho ukungena nokuqhanyelwa kungasho ukuqedwa nhlobo. Phela, ngivame ukuzwa lo mbuzo ekwamukeleni kwami: ingabe ubulili ngaphandle kokungena bungabizwa ngokuthi ubuhlobo bobulili ngempela?
SK: Abesifazane abaningi nabo babuza lo mbuzo. Ngivumelana nawe ngencazelo ye-erotica: ivela ngaphakathi, ivela emcabangweni, kuyilapho izithombe zobulili ezingcolile zenza ngomshini, zingashiyi indawo yabaqulekile.
AE: Izithombe zobulili ezingcolile yizona ezisiholela enyameni, ekungqubuzaneni kolwelwesi lwamafinyila komunye nomunye. Asihlali ku-hyper-erotic, kodwa emphakathini we-hyper-pornography. Abantu bafuna indlela ezovumela ucansi ukuthi lusebenze ngomshini. Lokhu akufaki i-erotica, kodwa ekujabuleleni. Futhi lokhu akulona iqiniso, ngoba ke siziqinisekisa ukuthi sijabule endaweni yocansi. Kodwa lokhu akuseyona i-hedonism, kodwa umkhuhlane, ngezinye izikhathi obuhlungu, ovame ukuhlukumeza.
SK: Injabulo eshayisana nempumelelo. Kufanele “sifike…” Sinenqwaba yezithombe, imiqondo, nemiyalelo ngakolunye, phambi kwamehlo ethu, futhi ngakolunye, ukulondolozwa kwemvelo okwedlulele. Kimina kubonakala sengathi i-erotica iyangena phakathi kwalezi zimo ezimbili ezeqisayo.
AE: I-Erotica izohlala ithola indlela yokuziveza, ngoba isisekelo sayo siyi-libido yethu. Lapho abadwebi phakathi nokuQulwa Kwamacala Ezihlubuki benqatshelwa ukudweba imizimba enqunu, babebonisa uKristu ebethelwe esiphambanweni ngendlela evusa inkanuko.
SK: Kodwa i-censorship ikhona yonke indawo ngoba sikuphethe ngaphakathi kwethu. I-Erotica ihlale itholakala lapho ingavunyelwe noma ibhekwa njengengcolile. Kubonakala sengathi konke kuvunyelwe namuhla? Inkanuko yethu izongena kuyo yonke imifantu futhi ivele ngesikhathi esingasilindele. Endaweni engafanele, ngesikhathi esingalungile, nomuntu ongalungile… Inkanuko izalwa ngenxa yokwephulwa kwemithetho yethu yokungazi lutho.
AE: Sihlala sithinta indawo ehlobene eduze ne-erotica lapho sikhuluma ngemininingwane. Isibonelo, ngikhuluma ngoseyili emkhathizwe, futhi wonke umuntu uyaqonda ukuthi sikhuluma ngomkhumbi. Leli khono lisiza ukubuka kwethu, kuqala ngemininingwane, ukuqedela okuthile okuphelele. Mhlawumbe lona umehluko oyisisekelo phakathi kwe-erotica nezithombe zobulili ezingcolile: eyokuqala iwuphawu kuphela, eyesibili inikeza ngokungagwegwesi, ngendlela enokhahlo. Alikho ilukuluku ezithombeni ezingcolile.
1 U-Louise Labé, 1522-1566, imbongi yesiFulentshi, waphila impilo evulekile, ababhali ababambe iqhaza, abaculi nabaculi endlini yakhe.
2 UColette (Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette), 1873-1954, wayengumbhali waseFrance, owaziwa nangokuthi inkululeko yakhe yokuziphatha nezindaba eziningi zothando nabesifazane namadoda. Knight of the Order of the Legion of Honor.
3 U-Lou Andreas-Salome, uLouise Gustavovna Salome (Lou Andreas-Salomé), 1861‒1937, indodakazi kaJenene Wenkonzo YaseRussia uGustav von Salome, umbhali nesazi sefilosofi, umngane kanye nomgqugquzeli kaFriedrich Nietzsche, Sigmund Freud kanye noRainer-Maria Rilke.