U-Viktor Kagan ungomunye wochwepheshe bezengqondo baseRussia abanolwazi kakhulu nabaphumelele. Njengoba eqale ukuzilolonga eSt. Petersburg ngeminyaka yawo-1970, eminyakeni edlule ukwazile ukuqinisekisa iziqu zakhe eziphezulu kakhulu e-United States. Futhi uViktor Kagan uyisazi sefilosofi nembongi. Futhi mhlawumbe yingakho nje ekwazi ukuchaza ngobuhlakani obuthile kanye nokunemba wona kanye umnyombo womsebenzi wesazi sokusebenza kwengqondo, obhekene nezindaba ezicashile ezinjengokwazi, ubuntu - ngisho nomphefumulo.
Psychology: Yini, ngokubona kwakho, eshintshile ku-psychotherapy yaseRussia uma kuqhathaniswa nesikhathi owaqala ngaso?
UVictor Kagan: Ngingasho ukuthi abantu sebeshintshile kuqala. Futhi okungcono. Ngisho neminyaka engu-7-8 edlule, lapho ngenza amaqembu okutadisha (lapho ama-psychotherapists ngokwabo afanisa amacala athile kanye nezindlela zokusebenza), izinwele zami zaphakama. Amakhasimende afika nezinto zawo aphenywa ngemibuzo mayelana nezimo ngendlela yephoyisa lendawo futhi awasho ukuziphatha “okulungile” kwawo. Nokho, ezinye izinto eziningi ezingenziwa ekwelashweni ngokwengqondo zenziwa ngaso sonke isikhathi.
Futhi manje abantu basebenza “ngokuhlanzeka” kakhulu, bafaneleka ngokwengeziwe, banesandla sabo sokubhala, njengoba besho, bazizwa ngeminwe yabo lokho abakwenzayo, futhi ababheki emuva ngokungapheli ezincwadini zokufunda nemidwebo. Baqala ukuzinika inkululeko yokusebenza. Nakuba, mhlawumbe, lesi akusona isithombe esinenjongo. Ngoba labo abasebenza kabi ngokuvamile abayi emaqenjini. Abanaso isikhathi sokufunda nokungabaza, badinga ukuthola imali, bakhulu ngokwabo, yiziphi ezinye amaqembu akhona. Kodwa kulabo engibabonayo, umbono uwukuthi - umnandi kakhulu.
Futhi uma sikhuluma ngamakhasimende nezinkinga zabo? Ingabe kukhona okushintshile lapha?
I-VC. Ngasekupheleni kwawo-1980 ngisho nasekuqaleni kwawo-1990, abantu abanezimpawu zomtholampilo ezicacile babevame ukucela usizo: i-hysterical neurosis, asthenic neurosis, obsessive-compulsive disorder ... kusho okufanayo - i-neurosis ye-classic isiphenduke into engavamile emnyuziyamu.
Ukuchaza kanjani?
I-VC. Ngicabanga ukuthi iphuzu liwushintsho lomhlaba wonke ezindleleni zokuphila, oluzwakala kakhulu eRussia. Umphakathi waseSoviet, kubonakala kimi, wawunesimiso sawo sezimpawu zezingcingo. Umphakathi onjalo ungafaniswa nezintuthwane. Idlozi likhathele, alikwazi ukusebenza, lidinga ukucambalala ndawana thize ukuze lingadliwa, lilahlwe njenge-ballast. Ngaphambili, kulesi simo, isibonakaliso ku-anthill kwakuyilokhu: Ngiyagula. Nginokusangana, nginokungaboni kahle, ngine-neurosis. Uyabona, ngokuzayo lapho bethumela amazambane ukuyokha, bazongizwela. Okusho ukuthi, ngakolunye uhlangothi, wonke umuntu kwakufanele alungele ukunikela ngezimpilo zakhe ngenxa yomphakathi. Kodwa ngakolunye uhlangothi, wona kanye lo mphakathi wavuza izisulu. Futhi uma wayengakabi naso isikhathi sokudela ukuphila kwakhe ngokuphelele, babengamthumela esibhedlela - ukuze athole ukwelashwa.
Futhi namuhla awukho lowo mhlwa. Imithetho isishintshile. Futhi uma ngithumela isignali enjalo, ngilahlekelwa ngokushesha. Uyagula? Ngakho-ke iphutha lakho, awuzinakekeli kahle. Futhi ngokuvamile, kungani umuntu kufanele agule kuyilapho kunemithi emangalisayo kangaka? Mhlawumbe awunayo imali eyanele kubo? Ngakho-ke, awukwazi ngisho nokusebenza!
Siphila emphakathini lapho i-psychology iyeka ukusabela kuphela ezenzakalweni futhi ziya ngokuya zinquma zona kanye nempilo uqobo. Lokhu akukwazi nje ukuguqula ulimi olukhulunywa ama-neuroses, futhi isibonakhulu sokunakwa sithola ukuxazulula okukhulu, futhi ukwelashwa kwengqondo kushiya izindonga zezikhungo zezokwelapha futhi kukhule ngokweluleka abantu abaphilile ngokwengqondo.
Futhi obani abangabhekwa njengamaklayenti ajwayelekile ama-psychotherapists?
I-VC. Ingabe ulinde impendulo: «amakhosikazi anesithukuthezi osomabhizinisi abacebile»? Yebo-ke, labo abanemali nesikhathi salokhu bazimisele kakhulu ukuyofuna usizo. Kodwa ngokuvamile awekho amaklayenti avamile. Kukhona amadoda nabesifazane, abacebile nabampofu, abadala nabancane. Nakuba abantu abadala basazimisele kancane. Phela, mina nozakwethu baseMelika saphikisana kakhulu mayelana nalokhu mayelana nokuthi umuntu angaba isikhathi esingakanani iklayenti le-psychotherapist. Futhi bafinyelela esiphethweni sokuthi kuze kube yilapho eqonda amahlaya. Uma umuzwa wokuhlekisa ugcinwa, ungasebenza.
Kodwa ngomqondo wokuhlekisa kwenzeka ngisho nasebusheni kubi ...
I-VC. Yebo, futhi awazi ukuthi kunzima kangakanani ukusebenza nabantu abanjalo! Kodwa-ke ngokungathí sina, zikhona-ke izimpawu njengenkomba ye-psychotherapy. Mangithi ngiyawesaba amaxoxo. Yilapho ukwelapha ngokuziphatha kungasiza khona. Kodwa uma sikhuluma ngobuntu, khona-ke ngibona izimpande ezimbili, izizathu ezikhona zokuphendukela ku-psychotherapist. UMerab Mamardashvili, isazi sefilosofi engimkweleta okuningi ekuqondeni umuntu, wabhala ukuthi umuntu "uyaziqoqa". Uya ku-psychotherapist lapho le nqubo iqala ukuhluleka. Lokho umuntu akuchazayo akubalulekile neze, kodwa uzizwa sengathi usephumile endleleni yakhe. Lesi yisizathu sokuqala.
Okwesibili wukuthi umuntu usuke eyedwa phambi kwalesi simo akuso, akanamuntu angakhuluma ngaso. Aqale azame ukuzitholela yena, kodwa ahluleke. Izama ukukhuluma nabangani — ayisebenzi. Ngenxa yokuthi abangani ebudlelwaneni naye banentshisekelo yabo, abakwazi ukungathathi hlangothi, bayazisebenzela, kungakhathaliseki ukuthi banomusa kangakanani. Unkosikazi noma umyeni naye ngeke aqonde, nabo banezithakazelo zabo, futhi awukwazi ukubatshela konke. Ngokuvamile, akekho ongakhuluma naye - akekho ongakhuluma naye. Futhi-ke, lapho ufuna umphefumulo ophilayo ongakwazi ukuba wedwa enkingeni yakho, ufika kudokotela wezengqondo ...
…umsebenzi kabani oqala ngokumlalela?
I-VC. Umsebenzi uqala noma kuphi. Kukhona inganekwane enjalo yezokwelapha mayelana noMarshal Zhukov. Wake wagula, futhi-ke, isibani esikhulu sathunyelwa emzini wakhe. Kwafika okabani, kodwa umashali akakuthandanga lokho. Bathumela inkanyiso yesibili, eyesithathu, neyesine, yaxosha wonke umuntu ... Wonke umuntu ulahlekile, kodwa badinga ukwelashwa, uMarshal Zhukov phela. Kwathunyelwa uprofesa othile olula. Wavela, uZhukov uyaphuma ukuyohlangana. Uprofesa uphonsa ijazi lakhe ezandleni ze-marshal futhi wangena ekamelweni. Futhi lapho uZhukov, eselengise ijazi lakhe, engena emva kwakhe, uprofesa wavuma ngekhanda kuye: "Hlala phansi!" Lo profesa waba udokotela we-marshal.
Lokhu ngikutshela ukuthi umsebenzi uqala nganoma yini. Kukhona okuzwakalayo ezwini leklayenti lapho lifona, kukhona okubonakala ngendlela yalo lapho lingena ... Ithuluzi eliyinhloko elisebenzayo le-psychotherapist yi-psychotherapist ngokwakhe. Yimina ithuluzi. Kungani? Ngoba yilokho engikuzwayo nengikwenzayo. Uma ngihlala phambi kwesiguli futhi umhlane wami uqala ubuhlungu, kusho ukuthi ngisabela ngedwa, ngalobu buhlungu. Futhi nginezindlela zokuyihlola, ukubuza - ingabe ibuhlungu? Kuyinqubo ephilayo ngokuphelele, umzimba nomzimba, umsindo ukuya kumsindo, umuzwa wokuzwa. Ngiyithuluzi lokuhlola, ngiyithuluzi lokungenelela, ngisebenza ngegama.
Ngaphezu kwalokho, lapho usebenza nesiguli, akunakwenzeka ukuhlanganyela ekukhethweni okunengqondo kwamagama, uma ucabanga ngakho - ukwelashwa kuphelile. Kodwa ngandlela-thile nami ngiyakwenza. Futhi ngomqondo womuntu siqu, ngiphinde ngisebenze nami: Ngivulekile, kufanele nginikeze isiguli ukusabela okungafundile: isiguli sihlala sizwa lapho ngicula iculo elifunde kahle. Cha, kufanele nginikeze ngqo ukusabela kwami, kodwa futhi kufanele kube ukwelapha.
Ingabe kungafundwa konke lokhu?
I-VC. Kuyenzeka futhi kuyadingeka. Hhayi enyuvesi, kunjalo. Nakuba enyuvesi ungakwazi futhi kufanele ufunde ezinye izinto. Ukuphasa izivivinyo zamalayisensi eMelika, ngayithokozela indlela yabo yokufunda. Isazi sokusebenza kwengqondo, isazi sokusebenza kwengqondo esisizayo, kumele sazi okuningi. Kubandakanya i-anatomy kanye ne-physiology, i-psychopharmacology kanye neziyaluyalu ze-somatic, izimpawu zazo ezingase zifane nezengqondo ... Nokho, ngemva kokuthola imfundo yezemfundo - ukutadisha i-psychotherapy ngokwayo. Ngaphezu kwalokho, kungase kube kuhle ukuba nokuthambekela okuthile komsebenzi onjalo.
Ingabe ngezinye izikhathi uyenqaba ukusebenza nesiguli? Futhi ngaziphi izizathu?
I-VC. Kuyenzeka. Kwesinye isikhathi ngivele ngikhathele, kwesinye isikhathi kube yinto engiyizwa ezwini lakhe, kwesinye isikhathi kuba yimvelo yenkinga. Kunzima kimi ukuchaza lo muzwa, kodwa ngiye ngafunda ukuwethemba. Kufanele ngenqabe uma ngingakwazi ukunqoba isimo sengqondo sokuhlola ngomuntu noma inkinga yakhe. Ngazi ngokuhlangenwe nakho kwami ukuthi noma ngizibophezela ekusebenzeni nomuntu onjalo, cishe ngeke siphumelele.
Sicela ucacise mayelana «nesimo sengqondo sokuhlola». Kwenye inhlolokhono uthe uma uHitler eza ukuzobona i-psychotherapist, umelaphi ukhululekile ukwenqaba. Kodwa uma ezimisele ukusebenza, kufanele amsize axazulule izinkinga zakhe.
I-VC. Impela. Futhi ukubona phambi kwakho hhayi villain Hitler, kodwa umuntu ohlushwa okuthile futhi udinga usizo. Kulokhu, ukwelashwa kwengqondo kuhluke kunoma yikuphi okunye ukuxhumana, kwakha ubudlelwano obungatholakali kwenye indawo. Kungani isiguli sivame ukuthandana nomelaphi? Singakhuluma amazwi amaningi mayelana nokudluliswa kwemali, ukudluliselwa komunye umuntu… Kodwa isiguli sivele singene ebudlelwaneni esingakaze sibe kubo, ubudlelwano bothando oluphelele. Futhi ufuna ukuwagcina nganoma iyiphi indlela. Lobu budlelwano bubaluleke kakhulu, yilokhu kanye okwenza kube nokwenzeka kudokotela wengqondo ukuzwa umuntu ngokuhlangenwe nakho kwakhe.
Ekuqaleni kwawo-1990 eSt. Petersburg, indoda ethile yake yashayela ucingo ucingo yathi ineminyaka engu-15, yona nabangane bayo babamba amantombazane kusihlwa bawadlwengula, kwaba mnandi kakhulu. Kodwa manje, eminyakeni eminingi kamuva, wakhumbula lokhu - futhi manje akakwazi ukuhlala nakho. Wayibeka ngokucacile le nkinga: "Angikwazi ukuphila nayo." Uyini umsebenzi womelaphi? Hhayi ukuze umsize azibulale, umnikele emaphoyiseni noma umthumele ekuphendukeni kuwo wonke amakheli ezisulu. Umsebenzi uwukusiza ukuzicacisela lokhu okuhlangenwe nakho futhi uphile nakho. Futhi indlela yokuphila nokuthi yini okufanele uyenze ngokulandelayo - uzozinqumela yena.
Okungukuthi, i-psychotherapy kuleli cala isusiwe ekuzameni ukwenza umuntu abe ngcono?
I-VC. Ukwenza umuntu abe ngcono akuwona neze umsebenzi we-psychotherapy. Khona-ke masiphakamise ngokushesha isihlangu se-eugenics. Ngaphezu kwalokho, ngempumelelo yamanje kwezobunjiniyela bezakhi zofuzo, kungenzeka ukuguqula izakhi zofuzo ezintathu lapha, ususe ezine lapho ... Futhi ukuze uqiniseke, sizofaka ama-chips ambalwa ukuze alawule kude ukusuka phezulu. Futhi konke ngesikhathi esisodwa kuzoba kuhle kakhulu - kuhle kakhulu kangangokuthi ngisho no-Orwell akakwazanga ngisho nokuphupha. I-Psychotherapy ayiphathelene nalokho nhlobo.
Ngingasho lokhu: wonke umuntu uphila impilo yakhe, njengokungathi ufeketha iphethini yakhe ku-canvas. Kodwa ngezinye izikhathi kwenzeka ukuthi unamathisele inaliti - kodwa intambo ayilandeli: iphikisiwe, kukhona ifindo kuyo. Ukuqaqa leli findo kuwumsebenzi wami njenge-psychotherapist. Futhi hlobo luni lwephethini olukhona - akusikho okwami ukuthi nginqume. Umuntu ufika kimina uma into esesimweni sayo iphazamisa inkululeko yakhe yokuziqoqa futhi ibe nguye. Umsebenzi wami wukumsiza aphinde athole leyo nkululeko. Ingabe umsebenzi olula? Cha. Kodwa - ngijabule.